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How Far Away Are We?

  

100 members have voted

  1. 1. How long do you think it will be before partial transformation is a reality?

    • Less than 1 year
      1
    • 1 to 2 years
      5
    • 2 to 5 years
      9
    • 5 to 10 years
      24
    • 10 to 20 years
      27
    • More than 20 years
      34
  2. 2. How long do you think it will be before total transformation is a reality?

    • Less than 1 year
      1
    • 1 to 2 years
      0
    • 2 to 5 years
      4
    • 5 to 10 years
      5
    • 10 to 20 years
      20
    • 20 to 50 years
      23
    • Longer than 50 years but within our lifetime
      10
    • Not within our lifetime
      37


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And such is the position of being a scientist that we should honour the memory of those people by learning from the mistakes made with them - and by simulating whatever we want to do electronically through cloud computing and whatnot before applying to real people.

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Guest apersonwhoknows   
Guest apersonwhoknows

Ok, for starters this is the full version of the other video that I posted not to long ago here. (if anybody's willing to sit through over 55 mins of the video)

Now, please don't chew my head off for posting this please. I know this guy might seem like one of those religious people that feel the need to make everything biblical and scary. But if you just by pass all that and listen to what's really going on and be aware. Then you'll find out soon enough of what's happening. I had a conversation with chrontius last night about this very subject about darpa and what's going on. I do realize that this whole merging with the animal kingdom thing isn't necessarily gonna lead to full blown transformations. But it's somewhat of a start. (sort of maybe)

Tom Horn, also brings up some other topics as well, not just the whole subject around trans-humanism but other (maybe known topics to you guys). Leave feedback if you will about it. If for whatever reason the other stuff doesn't resonate with you. You can just by pass that. Or just bring it up to my attention.

Other than that, I apologize for posting this video if it might seem offensive. Apparently more needed to be said sense the other video was so short and lacked substance.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRUxjWKTPVs

Edited by apersonwhoknows
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Guest apersonwhoknows   
Guest apersonwhoknows

What's scarier than the truth? Not knowing. ^_^

I expect cyborgs before furries. Seriously, I haven't seen that much chrome on a limb since I ran out of new cyberpunk novels to read. Also, military-grade cyborgs will come long before military grade anthers, if only because we're already really good at equipping standard-shaped humans, and we have so many crippled vets who could be back in action with a new limb or two, or perhaps a set of replacement eyeballs. They're already trained, and training grunts is startlingly not cheap - the lowest-ranking enlisted man that goes overseas ate about $1 million in training expenses. Specialists and technicians are more spendy still. Military-grade anthros will probably only come when someone who has already paid for a conversion is drafted or tries to enlist, or some clever defense contractor tries to get ahead of demand.

I dunno about you guys, but I'm taking animal physiology this semester. :D

To answer your questions, the former is unpleasantly difficult, and may involve adding another bone to the fingers; it will be just big enough to house the nail bed, and that's about it. The latter will probably only make it harder to buy shoes. Higher ground pressure may cause them to wear out faster, less material will make them cheaper. Snow and mud will be easier to sink into, however.

I beg to differ - it's openly going on in the US too, if under other guises: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/how-engineering-the-human-body-could-combat-climate-change/253981/

I think we need to realize that we're operating in the context of a transhumanist movement who wants to spend a lot of time and resources on re-engineering the human body. You can come up with a reason that modified humans - including the cost of doing the modification - have a lower lifecycle energy (read: carbon) cost, you may get research grants. DARPA tends to prefer drugs and surgical modifications; there's a good chance that those are going to be cheaper - fewer "required secondary powers". Don't have to figure out the incredibly difficult and complicated immunological modifications to add some novel cell-surface proteins, after all.

Well, I don't why you would beg to differ for really. I know they are already doing this stuff in the U.S. you don't have to tell me that thank you. I just think personally you glazed over what was written there. I said other countries and "us" too (meaning the states) are doing stuff like this. So, yes, I know.

Now for this whole robot/cyborg thing with the trans-humanists, they seem to focus almost way too much on it and I think other people as well. It's seems like the singularity is mostly what these people have mostly on there minds right now, being gods, being a cyborg all over physically. Sure, cyborgs are fine and all. But it seems like thats all they are focusing on and nothing else. Maybe to you, probably not IDK, but that's just my take on it. Besides, maybe the whole enhancements thing as well maybe they focus too much on, who knows. Vets themselves who lost limbs can use this stuff as well when it comes to the robot stuff, of course! It would be silly not to.

But I'm just personally worried that that's all that group is going to focus on is just robotics, and nothing else when it comes to our future. Not giving citizens here or say really of the matter when it comes down to choices. I hope I'm wrong on that. Otherwise if I am right, it squanders people's creativity. But I am aware of the site(s) already before and who's behind it, so thank you for the links no less.

I have talked to that Ben Goertzel via email about this and wanted to really make sure that he/they were listening to the people for other ideas, (such as the merging with the animal kingdom thing) and not just focusing on robotics. I basically spoke on your guys behalf (without mentioning any names of course). And just wanted to ask him about the topic and made sure that he/they hear our voices in the matter.

Edit: I just hope I didn't come off as too abrasive for ya on this reply. I know you stated that you expect cyborgs before anthros. But I just feel people are gonna be left in the dust by these people and wanted to comment on this and give my 2 cents on it.

Edited by apersonwhoknows

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Well, I don't why you would beg to differ for really. I know they are already doing this stuff in the U.S. you don't have to tell me that thank you. I just think personally you glazed over what was written there. I said other countries and "us" too (meaning the states) are doing stuff like this. So, yes, I know.

Now for this whole robot/cyborg thing with the trans-humanists, they seem to focus almost way too much on it and I think other people as well. It's seems like the singularity is mostly what these people have mostly on there minds right now, being gods, being a cyborg all over physically. Sure, cyborgs are fine and all. But it seems like thats all they are focusing on and nothing else. Maybe to you, probably not IDK, but that's just my take on it. Besides, maybe the whole enhancements thing as well maybe they focus too much on, who knows. Vets themselves who lost limbs can use this stuff as well when it comes to the robot stuff, of course! It would be silly not to.

Whether or not they're furries or sympathizers, that's the group that is going to invent the foundation that they're probably going to be built on. And even on the off chance nobody builds furries, they'll make the cognitive enhancers that make it easy for us to do it for ourselves.

But I'm just personally worried that that's all that group is going to focus on is just robotics, and nothing else when it comes to our future. Not giving citizens here or say really of the matter when it comes down to choices. I hope I'm wrong on that. Otherwise if I am right, it squanders people's creativity. But I am aware of the site(s) already before and who's behind it, so thank you for the links no less.

Huh?

I have talked to that Ben Goertzel via email about this and wanted to really make sure that he/they were listening to the people for other ideas, (such as the merging with the animal kingdom thing) and not just focusing on robotics. I basically spoke on your guys behalf (without mentioning any names of course). And just wanted to ask him about the topic and made sure that he/they hear our voices in the matter.

Edit: I just hope I didn't come off as too abrasive for ya on this reply. I know you stated that you expect cyborgs before anthros. But I just feel people are gonna be left in the dust by these people and wanted to comment on this and give my 2 cents on it.

Not too abrasive, just maybe missing the point.

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Okay. First off, I want to share this before I forget: http://cl.ly/3R2q45421c1C1q3n1L2v Although I'm disappointed he didn't consider bat-like or wyvern-like wings, it's published science from a journal. I assume he did it for fun, but scientists doing things "for fun" may be a fairly productive source of cosmetic human enhancements in the future.

Person Who Knows, I think you'd be well served to read up on Valkyrie Ice's essays on transhumanism and transgender; not only are most of them applicable to furries as well, she told me that was deliberate. Perhaps start here and then work your way through the links she provided in the first comment. I think I'll try to sum up the goals here, though I may be grossly wrong:

Make people objectively better

Make people better at being better people

Make peoples' phenotype better reflect who they choose to be.

Oh, and on a bit of trivia, I think I wrote the first Wikipedia article on Morphological Freedom and had it deleted inside two weeks. Looking back, it deserved it, but someone else rewrote it and now it's kind of a major plank in the larger platform of transhumanism. That said, if Max More coined the term in 1993, I was only a decade late to the party - but so was the rest of Wikipedia! :)

edit: I independently discovered the concept of morphological freedom; if I did it, other freewheeling science types probably did too, and they may not realize that there's other people out there that think like they do. That's a shame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_dysphoria

Holy bleeding Jesus, Wikipedia has an entire - fairly long - article on species dysphoria.

Edited by chrontius

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Guest apersonwhoknows   
Guest apersonwhoknows

Okay. First off, I want to share this before I forget: http://cl.ly/3R2q45421c1C1q3n1L2v Although I'm disappointed he didn't consider bat-like or wyvern-like wings, it's published science from a journal. I assume he did it for fun, but scientists doing things "for fun" may be a fairly productive source of cosmetic human enhancements in the future.

Person Who Knows, I think you'd be well served to read up on Valkyrie Ice's essays on transhumanism and transgender; not only are most of them applicable to furries as well, she told me that was deliberate. Perhaps start here and then work your way through the links she provided in the first comment. I think I'll try to sum up the goals here, though I may be grossly wrong:

Make people objectively better

Make people better at being better people

Make peoples' phenotype better reflect who they choose to be.

Oh, and on a bit of trivia, I think I wrote the first Wikipedia article on Morphological Freedom and had it deleted inside two weeks. Looking back, it deserved it, but someone else rewrote it and now it's kind of a major plank in the larger platform of transhumanism. That said, if Max More coined the term in 1993, I was only a decade late to the party - but so was the rest of Wikipedia! :)

edit: I independently discovered the concept of morphological freedom; if I did it, other freewheeling science types probably did too, and they may not realize that there's other people out there that think like they do. That's a shame.

http://en.wikipedia....ecies_dysphoria

Holy bleeding Jesus, Wikipedia has an entire - fairly long - article on species dysphoria.

Wow, you really did your homework! I will definitely look into these links. I did read through one you gave me not too long ago by chat. That was fairly interesting as well. It's just, once that time comes when we would have to change somehow to accommodate with our very own environment. That's probably gonna be a long time from now maybe (maybe anyways).

I know people can have a very difficult time of changing their habits and way of living over all. People usually think that there's an agenda behind it to tell people what to do. How to live so to speak. But, remember, this what the people think or will think, not me of course--just stating the obvious. But, we are gonna have to make some changes. Especially with the global warming, become more green savvy in green technologies of the like.

But I have to ask you though sense you bring up these things, do you or have you read any books on trans-humanism? I have finished one already that was pretty interesting. It was called The Radical Evolution: The Promise and peril of enhancing our minds, bodies and what it means to be human by a author named Joel Garreau. Published back in 2006.

Edited by apersonwhoknows

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From a technological standpoint (forgetting ethics/how the research will be performed) a partial transformation at the very least could be possible within the next 10-15 years. this could happen with the use of titanium for the bone structure, vitro meat (out-of-body grown muscle tissue), emotion/basic thought sensor implants (primarily for tail manipulation), and artificial nerves that use fiber optics.

The only part that i see a problem with full/partial fur is literally the fur.

Now as far as ethics is concerned there are enogh people who become very wealthy so odds are that at least one will end up being a furry that wants a full tf above all else that would fund the research.

sources:

vitro meat.........................http://en.wikipedia....i/In_vitro_meat

fiber optic nerves.............http://www.popsci.co...ce-bionic-limbs

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Master DC, the term is actually "In Vitro", which is latin for "In Glass". Contrast with "In Vivo", or "In Life"; perhaps a better transliteration would be "In The Body". The "In" in there is a little important. :)

If you think titanium bones is impressive, you should see how they're 3D printing the stuff for (for example) prosthetic jaws. Bespoke Innovations is also doing 3D printed bionics, probably using titanium, and definitely using a lot of chrome. As to the fiber optic nerves, it's amazing but the peripheral nervous system actually speaks binary. :D

Person Who Knows, I'm currently working my way through More Than Human. Good stuff so far, but dated. So much of what seemed cutting edge in 2005 is old news, on the market, or still vexing researchers (Or, occasionally, awaiting FDA approval).

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There is new Science today suggesting that 3D printing of solid organs is no longer constrained so much by capillary supply; they're printing "sugar glass" like materials to make capillaries in negative. Add this to yesterday's Oxygen Particle injections, and not only has trauma medicine made startling strides this week, we could be able to embed the particles in the sugar stuff to supply organs while they grow, and before their vascular supply is really up to speed.

Patent pending, natch.

Edited by chrontius
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This topic seems to have broken the forum. It always shows up as newly posted in even after it's been read umpteen times with no new posts...

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Gamma   

If this were to come true some day it would take a long time because of all the people who say it would be playing god, unethical, etc. but one day people might accept accept it.

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Oros   

Sorry if any of this information is already posted, I didn't read all the links >.>

 

In theory some parts of partial change is possible with current technology. The already have artificial animal tails and ears that move by reading the wearer's pulse. Combine this with cochlear implants that can allow a deaf person to hear + cybernetics that can feel, and you basically have a partial transformation right there. You would hear from the fake ears, and these artificial limbs would move based on changes in pulse in a similar matter to if they were real. Also if they can make a prosthetic that can fell, why not make ones that are digit-grade legs, or throw some fur on them?

 

That said I don't think anyone will actually fund any advancements in these technologies that aren't for real medical purposes. Additionally this would make the person more like a cyborg than an anthro. >.> On a biological transformation, I don't think that is possible to any real extent in our lifetimes. Yes you can splice fish DNA into tomatoes to make them grow better, but a serious shift like a human to anthro would probably kill a person or be too different for the body to adapt. More plausibly you could alter an unborn fetus that is still developing, but that gets into all kind of weird moral stuff. Although the Darpa stuff does look interesting...

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Sorry if any of this information is already posted, I didn't read all the links >.>

 

In theory some parts of partial change is possible with current technology. The already have artificial animal tails and ears that move by reading the wearer's pulse. Combine this with cochlear implants that can allow a deaf person to hear + cybernetics that can feel, and you basically have a partial transformation right there. You would hear from the fake ears, and these artificial limbs would move based on changes in pulse in a similar matter to if they were real. Also if they can make a prosthetic that can fell, why not make ones that are digit-grade legs, or throw some fur on them?

 

That said I don't think anyone will actually fund any advancements in these technologies that aren't for real medical purposes. Additionally this would make the person more like a cyborg than an anthro. >.> On a biological transformation, I don't think that is possible to any real extent in our lifetimes. Yes you can splice fish DNA into tomatoes to make them grow better, but a serious shift like a human to anthro would probably kill a person or be too different for the body to adapt. More plausibly you could alter an unborn fetus that is still developing, but that gets into all kind of weird moral stuff. Although the Darpa stuff does look interesting...

Cyborg Anthros.

hell yes

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Sorry if any of this information is already posted, I didn't read all the links >.>

 

In theory some parts of partial change is possible with current technology. The already have artificial animal tails and ears that move by reading the wearer's pulse. Combine this with cochlear implants that can allow a deaf person to hear + cybernetics that can feel, and you basically have a partial transformation right there. You would hear from the fake ears, and these artificial limbs would move based on changes in pulse in a similar matter to if they were real. Also if they can make a prosthetic that can fell, why not make ones that are digit-grade legs, or throw some fur on them?

 

That said I don't think anyone will actually fund any advancements in these technologies that aren't for real medical purposes. Additionally this would make the person more like a cyborg than an anthro. >.> On a biological transformation, I don't think that is possible to any real extent in our lifetimes. Yes you can splice fish DNA into tomatoes to make them grow better, but a serious shift like a human to anthro would probably kill a person or be too different for the body to adapt. More plausibly you could alter an unborn fetus that is still developing, but that gets into all kind of weird moral stuff. Although the Darpa stuff does look interesting...

To be uncharacteristically foreboding, and quote Jafar from Aladdin, "You'd be surprised what you can live through!" - However, Jafar meant it as 'you'd be surprised what tortures you will withstand without dying even if you want to die' whereas I'm inverting its point here to mean, a person determined enough to stay alive, provided their body doesn't lose its vital systems for long enough to force death, will survive longer through crazily difficult stuff. You have to have a strong belief in yourself and in your dreams and end goals. That combined with the very best efforts to learn, perfect, simulate and write large all that genetic and biological sciences can offer, will see full genetic-based anthro furry TF within 50 years without any messy surgery, mark my words. The more people put time and effort in, the better the chances of success and the faster it will happen.

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Oros   

To be uncharacteristically foreboding, and quote Jafar from Aladdin, "You'd be surprised what you can live through!" - However, Jafar meant it as 'you'd be surprised what tortures you will withstand without dying even if you want to die' whereas I'm inverting its point here to mean, a person determined enough to stay alive, provided their body doesn't lose its vital systems for long enough to force death, will survive longer through crazily difficult stuff. You have to have a strong belief in yourself and in your dreams and end goals. That combined with the very best efforts to learn, perfect, simulate and write large all that genetic and biological sciences can offer, will see full genetic-based anthro furry TF within 50 years without any messy surgery, mark my words. The more people put time and effort in, the better the chances of success and the faster it will happen.

It would be great to see a genetic based anthro, especially within 50 years. It just seems like that would be fairly difficult and messy. It would require some difficult things, like reshaping the skull, grafting on a tail and hooking it up to the spinal column. controlling hormone levels and other stuff to ensure the growth and maintenance of fur, and a bunch of other stuff that I have no idea about. Additionally the body attempts to naturally reject tissue that isn't seen as normal and could cause other strange problems where the body rejects its self. The body can survive a lot, but sometimes is seems to be extremely fragile, especially after a major surgery where stress alone can cause it to shut down, or you could die from shock. That said, it is perfectly possible that the body would accept these changes and with improved medical knowledge that these things could be easy for a skilled doctor to do. In any case, I hope future medical knowledge improves enough to make such a thing possible, and that there is enough funding to support it.

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I don't know enough about the sciences to give a good answer, but I feel we're far more likely to make some sort of brain transplant into another being before we managed anything genetic.

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Actually, the term 'genetic' is used in this case to infer that the changes made would be caused by a rewrite and jumpstart of the DNA in every cell. The rewrite would involve editing the code to make it tell the body its cells and tissues ought to be arranged as and in the shape and colour and using the proteins required for being an anthro furry. The jumpstart would be a way of telling all the cells simultaneously to replace themselves or to otherwise find a way of expressing the new genes en masse. The effect of which ought to in theory be a transformation achieved through the body growing and changing itself into a furry, rather than requiring much if any surgery. This can even be true of changes to bones, there are enzymes that revert bone to its softer growth state, which could also be used for shrinking it where applicable. The body is very malleable, but who better to have reshape it than those who built it - the molecules of DNA and proteins it encodes. This would require a clever computer system that can simulate the whole body so that changes can be determined in advance before being applied by a vector.

Yes, it's a tall order. But it's feasible.

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Considering science has cured 2 cases of cancer (one of which was a little girl, on her death bed with late stage cancer deemed incurable) with a re-written strain of HIV in the last 6 months, full genetic restructuring on a living human isn't that far off. Fascinating this is that the altered virus didn't command the body's cells to attack the cancer, it rewrote the cancer's cell structure to a pre-mutated state. That being the case, all they'd really have to do is figure out how to re-arrange genes to get the desired fur colors and limb growth, and bam, you've got an anthro furry, with 100 % human DNA, but animal appearance. I'm banking another 5 years and cancer will be eliminated, after that, they'll find more recreational uses for the technology. So 10 to 15 years tops. 

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Considering science has cured 2 cases of cancer (one of which was a little girl, on her death bed with late stage cancer deemed incurable) with a re-written strain of HIV in the last 6 months, full genetic restructuring on a living human isn't that far off. Fascinating this is that the altered virus didn't command the body's cells to attack the cancer, it rewrote the cancer's cell structure to a pre-mutated state. That being the case, all they'd really have to do is figure out how to re-arrange genes to get the desired fur colors and limb growth, and bam, you've got an anthro furry, with 100 % human DNA, but animal appearance. I'm banking another 5 years and cancer will be eliminated, after that, they'll find more recreational uses for the technology. So 10 to 15 years tops. 

Care to join me at www.vulpinedesigns.co.uk ? :-)

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Fully Immersive virtual reality is the best bet, in my opinion, for actually experiencing being a furry for extended periods of time. By brain stimulation, and brain interpretation, two proven concepts that work in reality, we could see, smell, feel, and interact with a virtual world, where there are no physical limitations. The problem with IRL transformation is the reluctance of the general populace to blur the lines between human and animal. This reluctance can be exemplified in the case when two British scientists somatically fused a mouse cell and a hela cell, which was a cell from a human cell line. This caused an uproar in the general populace when no real harm was being done. Could you imagine the persecution of those who underwent this furry tf therapy, which is in fact scientifically impossible in my opinion. Even if it wasn't impossible, the demand for such a product would be so low no one would spend the capital to research it. This is because the sole application for such a product would be for furries, which, at the current rate of growth/decay in the furry community, is less than 1 million persons. Comparitively, an immersive VR technology could be used to train personell in ultra realistic conditions, (i.e. army /medical /pilots) for entertainment, buisness, (virtual meetings), and design. With current advancements in computers and brain computer interactions, a fully immersive VR could be feasible within the next 20 years. My apologies for the numerous typos, as I wrote this as quickly as possible on my phone :3, and for posting to a just barely over 2 week old topic, but I feel, since my approach has, as far to my knowledge, yet to be discussed, it could benefit this discussion.

Also, to those who are skeptical of my reasoning, I have links to some of the sources of my information, which I am happy to provide upon request within two to three days.

And finnaly, to those who think I am pessimistic when it comes to the topic discussed, I assure you, as my membership on this website suggests, I am just as desperate as you all to experience myself as my fursona. However, I attempt to isolate my unrestrained passion from my work in order to more logically approach the problem at hand.

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Din   

When playing with some people online this topic actually came up (not with furies though). By what your saying by a virtual reality world I think your giving the idea similar to sword art online. The other people were saying something like that people (myself included) would enjoy themselves so much in the virtual world that they would not want to come out of it and would start neglecting their health and eventually people would start getting sick and start dying. I would love for this idea to become a reality but I unfortunately don't see it coming to consumers for recreational use, only for business. >:(

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When playing with some people online this topic actually came up (not with furies though). By what your saying by a virtual reality world I think your giving the idea similar to sword art online. The other people were saying something like that people (myself included) would enjoy themselves so much in the virtual world that they would not want to come out of it and would start neglecting their health and eventually people would start getting sick and start dying. I would love for this idea to become a reality but I unfortunately don't see it coming to consumers for recreational use, only for business. >:(

Your arguement is often to come up when discussing fully immersive VR, and it is a good one. However, there are two reasons why it should not be a problem. The first is the basic psyc. of 3rd order intelligence animals, such as humans and dolphins, and that is, thinking of future consequences. This can be exemplified in similar experiments done to a rat and a dolphin. In both cases, two electrodes where hooked up to the area of the brain directly below the hypothalamus, which acts as the pleasure center of the brain. When a plate was pushed by either animal, the electrodes would fire and intense pleasure would be felt by both animals. In both cases, the animals repeatedly pushed the plate for hours, but this is where their stories diverge. The rat continues to press the lever until he dies from starvation, compared to the dolphin, who leaves the plate, eats and swims around, then continues to push. This future thinking also is present in humans, however, those who are younger have less of this sense, and uncoincidentally show a greater affinity to drugs, pornography and video games, as these also stimulate pleasure centers. It is possible that age limits will be set for use of immersive VR, but due to our own existence at the moment, this should not be a problem.

The second reason that this should not be a problem is the steady increase in automation of the workplace as well as human population and longevity that will lead to shorter workdays and higher unemployment. Driver-less vehicles will remove millions upon millions of jobs including traffic law enforcement, vehicular insurance, aircraft piloting, bus, truck, and taxi driving, and shipping. Manufacturing is also becoming more and more automated. New experiments in Europe are trying out the effects of shorter work days, with overwhelmingly positive results. All of this points to more and more free time, which could be taken up by an all inclusive entertainment system. Also, immersive VR creates a dream like state in your brain, so theoretically, one could replace sleep with more recreation time.

Once again, sources provided upon request within 2-3 days.

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